Ed Young, Private Planes and Pastor’s Salaries
A Dallas/Fort Worth TV station did a story about Ed Young’s possible ownership and use of a private plane. The story included details about his compensation and housing situation. I don’t know the reporter, but I can bet he has an agenda, and the Darth Vader figure was over the top. Still, the story is making waves, and it’s embedded below.
Ed Young responded to the story on his blog. It certainly appears that in a blog post titled “No Secrets” where comments are open, critical comments are not approved.
First, a disclaimer or two.
Most people have no idea how difficult it is to lead a large congregation. We see big numbers and compare them to our situations, which may not be comparing apples to apples. And in theory, I don’t have a problem with an influential leader using a private transportation in certain cases. Finally, it’s not the job of the church to keep the pastor’s poor. The Bible teaches that churches should take care of their leaders and that a pastor is worth his wages.
But here is my issue.
He wrote about financial accountability, but never answered the question. Does the church own a jet? That was the basic tenant of the news piece, and there has been no response to that question. Why not come out and say, “Yes, the church owns a plane because we did a cost analysis.” Secondly, how can a pastor of a church justify a $1.2 million compensation package? I’m aware of independent compensation studies, but how do a pastor personally justify a salary at such level? I just don’t understand.
And here is my question.
Should the salaries of pastors be public knowledge? We know how much government officials make, including teachers. We know about the compensation of non-profit leaders like Franklin Graham from Samaritan’s Purse. We even know the salaries of corporate leaders of publicly traded companies. Should the salary of a tax-exempt non-profit organization be a matter of public record?
Update: Ed addressed some of these concerns with his church over the weekend. That video is embedded below.
Okay, comment away.
Part of me says “yes,” and the other part of me says “no.” The “yes” part most likely is due the the fact that I am envious of Ed’s salary because as a youth pastor mine is so small its not even funny. The “no” side is because I don’t believe it is anybody’s business besides the board/committee that sets the salary (if Ed sets his own salary, well that’s a different story). I don’t know what people in my church make, and I don’t believe they have a right to know what I make. All of our pastor’s salaries are lumped together every year in a financial handout that we give to the congregation. That’s a fair way to do it.
The point is, Ed needs to be careful. 1.2 mil is extravagant. An airplane is extravagant. Most people in his church won’t make that much money in a lifetime, and he shouldn’t make that in a year (or 10 years for that matter).
The only way I would ever be uncomfortable with sharing my salary details is if it were too high for me to justify as a pastor. I could care less who knows what I make.
10 years? Come on that is only $100K a year. A pastor pastoring a church that size should be making more than that.
His blog post is hardly a response in my opinion and i also think “I am a person of integrity” is just one of those things you cannot say about yourself. That is for others to say about you. It’s like arguing how humble you are.
Ed Young should be able to face his “accuser” out in the open – not some hooded figure whose face is covered up and voice has been electronically altered. This guy obviously has an axe to grind. Who is he anyway? He’s such a coward that he can’t even show his face!
And what about Channel 8 News? Are they providing a public servcie here, or just going for ratings in sweeps week? Who appointed them as the watchdog for Christian churches anyway?
I say let Ed’s accuser come out into the open and show his face, Let ‘him’ (not channel 8 News) ask Ed Young the questions. Then Ed will be obligated to answer.
Until then, I’ll not get on this hobby horse that assumes the worst.
I gotta disagree with Art on this one. It is definitely right and a right of the membership of any church to know the finances of the church and that includes the salary of the pastor. They are the ones paying that salary so they should be able at any time to know what the pastor and/or staff members of the church are paid each and every year. Who cares if they know what I make as a pastor? I sure don’t. No, we don’t know the salaries or wages of the folks in our church and it’s best that we don’t as pastors/staff members of the church so we don’t have the temptation to gravitate toward those who can “do” the most for us and the church. We serve all the people rich, poor, young, and old.
BTW, there is a line item on our yearly financial report that is given to all the members of our church that contains what I made last year as pastor of the church. It’s part of the expense, if you will, of operating the church. So considering it as that, they should and do get know exactly where their money is going. I do agree with Ron though as well. If you’re gonna blow a whistle at least have the guts to give the interview as yourself not hooded and modded. Come on now.
As a full time minister, a lowly youth pastor, I don’t have a problem with my salary being known. I have had members ask me if I would mind disclosing my salary and my response was: “No, since you pay me.”
I am a long time member and it saddens me greatly to see what is happening at Fellowship Church. Problems have been brewing for quite some time and are now coming out into the open. My worst fears and concerns about Ed continue to be validated by Ed’s actions or the lack of. It truly does appear that he a power and control monger and is now loosing control and he is going to get ugly. I posted the following comments on his blog yesterday and like other negative or challenging comments they never see the light of day.
“Ed,
You are a God gifted and talented man. You have made an immense impact on many people. I love and respect you and can not begin to measure the impact all the thousands of self sacrificing Fellowship volunteers have made on countless lives who have passed through our church doors. Over our ten plus years of membership, the congregation and staff have come and gone at an alarming rate. Creativity and inspiration have become non existent outside of your message during the worship service. The silent hidden unseen veil surrounding the leadership of Fellowship Church and the role it plays continues to become even more mysterious. After these issues came to light, I was confident this weekends service would provide an ideal opportunity to address these matters. However, it saddens me to say I was disappointed with the lack of openness, honesty and vision from you and the church leadership.”
I think the responsibilities that come with his role justify a much higher cost of living pay.
If the demand on his life is greater than any “average” person, spending time cleaning the living room or doing laundry is sort of a waste of resources. That goes for his wife and family also. They need to be available at any given moment so family life can be maintained. I don’t know that translates to 1.2M, but…
As for the topic, though… I think all business of the church should be transparent. I think certain luxuries like privacy are sacrificed when paid “by the people.” Any pettiness feared by church staff over behavior based compensation, or reduced giving due to jealousy, would be dealt with by God… as would attempting to be overly secretive in order to stave off such a thing. Perhaps God is doing some work right now with all of this backlash. Apparently secrets bear consequential fruit.
i think there’s difference between knowing what people make because they are employed by companies. Pastors, on the other hand, are paid out of donations and contributions. That seems to be at the heart of the matter.
I can only speak of what I would do, but I think if I were ever afraid or ashamed to tell the church what I made because of excessiveness, it would say more about my character than anything else. If you bought a Private Jet, awesome, but it should be to save money and not for comfort, be above board with everything, if you have been at the church for 17 years and grown it by 1000% then your salary should be commensurate with that based on longevity and growth, but above all, as a pastor, be above board, don’t hide anything, it’s damaging to your testimony.
Why is that the bigger your church, the more you should make? That’s ridiculous logic for ministry.
You’ve got to be kidding me! A $1.2 MILLION salary is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall budget of Fellowship Church. Ed has consistently offered to the pastors at C3 that the budget of Fellowship is $53 million. He’s making only 2.2% of that.
I’m the financial secretary of our church, and if our pastor made the same percentage of the budget that Ed gets from Fellowship, he’d be in the poor house!! We’d be paying our pastor to support him, his wife and children $12,000 a year, expecting him to do a full time job running two campuses.
The next time you think $1.2 million is extravagant, take a look at how much your salary takes out of the church budget and ask yourself if you would do it for 2.2 percent.
I have always accepted the fact that Ed Young gets a seven figure salary. A lot of his congregants make that, too. It’s the economy of Grapevine, Texas. Churches like that don’t exist in other parts of the country because their economy is different. And, it’s no wonder that the church has access to a private jet. It’s probably cheaper to use that plane than to constantly book flights between Miami and Dallas. Multiple campus churches are in a financial league of their own and shouldn’t be compared to a one campus church.
Carmen,
Maybe they should just pay him on commission?
Just for kicks and giggles, if Ed Young’s salary was reduced by $500,000 (leaving him making $750,000, $250k of which is not subject to income tax), the church could have done any of the following:
Sponsored 1,096 children with Compassion International.
Hired 10 people to share the gospel door to door 40 hours a week in Dallas.
Provided water for 166 villages in Rwanda through the Rwanda Well Project.
That’s with Ed Young still making, from the church alone, as much in one year as an average family makes in ten. That doesn’t include all his other enterprises (which are his own business, though I’m sure he prepares the sermons that he sells on his website on the church’s dime).
Which serves the mission of the church better? Paying the rock star pastor $1.25 million a year, or paying the rock star pastor $750,000 year and making a real difference in many, many people’s lives?
It’s about balance and priorities, both of which seem to be skewed here.
Wow. Well, I guess if Fellowship keeps starting new campuses all over the world, they could change their name to the Holy Grapevine Church, staring Pope Young I.
Here’s a challenge: Let’s have everyone who has posted an opinion here about Ed publish their own salary on this blog. After all, it’s about transparency right?
I’m game if you are. Any takers?
Carmen,
One other thing: if there is a cost/benefit analysis to justify the 8.7 million dollar jet, I’d like to hear it. If he was flying FIRST class between Miami and Dallas at a cost of $2,000 per flight, it would take 4,350 trips to pay for the cost of the plane itself, not even taking into account the cost of upkeep, fuel, the crew and maintenance.
If he made that trip with three other people (each of whom is also special enough to need first class treatment) one per week, every week, it would take nearly 21 YEARS to to equal the cost of the plane, before taking into consideration the other expenses.
Maybe that explains why he hasn’t directly addressed the issue of the jet?
Ron,
If you give a job and pay my salary, I’ll be glad to let you know what you’re paying me.
@Ron
If you get a group of people together that volunteer to support my ministry, I will prepare a pay request stating my needs for my ministry. You and your group can discuss meeting my ministries financial needs, then pay what you feel led to give. Then I will happily regurgitate to you what your group has given me.
But here’s the thing about the plane, it may be cheaper to just own a jet than take all those commercial flights. But why not just say that. In the news report they still claim they take commercial flights and no one would answer about the plane.
And as for large church = large income…..Joel Osteen and Rick Warren (both with larger churches) I’m pretty sure don’t take any salary. for your info Carmen, that would be 0.0%
I had no idea about this at the time, but in this blog post i wrote a while back about mega-churches, Ed Young is the pastor i was talking about.
http://www.aaronmarcelli.org/churches/mega-church-issues/
Update:
Ed Young addressed this over the weekend in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0fOQAsNzBg&feature=player_embedded
He said that Fellowship Church does NOT own an airplane, but that he does used a leased airplane from time to time.
He said that his house is not 10,000 square feet, but 7,000ish, and that the house is not paid for. He said that he is a part-owner of a publishing company, and that’s been no secret since the name of that company is printed on every book.
He said he is paid well but is salary has never been a million dollars, saying it’s “not near” that. While there might still be questions, Ed did seem to addresses the issues pretty openly.
Then two of Ed’s board members spoke, including John Cross, president of the Florida Baptist Convention and Mac Richard.
I think we can ask questions and raise concerns without attacking someone, and I appreciate the spirit of many of these comments.
Looking at the percentage of the overall budget to justify a salary does not work out in ministry. You can do that, but I say why not make $100,000 a year and use the other million to love your neighbor and minister to the broken, hurting, and poor. Not that Fellowship doesn’t do that, but how much more could they do if their leaders sacrificed for the good of the whole. Frankly, it’s pretty sickening to imagine. Bigger church does not mean more abundant salaries, it means more abundant outpouring of those blessings and resources, not to oursleves.
I don’t think that pastors should share what they make. The only amount of money a pastor can make without there being some controversy around it is $0. Some people will always say its too high or too low. Salary should be set by the board and kept accountable by the board. This is a wise decision and almost every successful pastor will agree on this. You just can’t walk into North Point and ask how much Andy Stanley is making (or probably John Piper)
I pulled oak leaf’s 2008 annual report. They reported how much they spent on staff salaries, but they did not break down how much each staff person was being paid. This is an excellent compromise of accountability and privacy. However – I doubt they will be able to do this in 10 years when Oak Leaf’s budget is over 50 million. I see outside accounting agencies like The Change Group that will be helping when churches transition.
Watch the youtube video from Ed. I think he is being very honest and open. It address almost every concern of the investigative story. Which by all journalism standards was very poor.
However, I think the question that churches like Fellowship and Granger need to look at is church resources. Should the money made from church resources (like sermons, graphics, etc) be kept in the church or is that a separate business that should pay the pastors and creators directly for their work.
I know the obvious answer to this is to give everything away for free. Lifechurch.tv and Desiring God and many more have already started doing this. However, if a church chooses to not give their resources away. What should that look like.
Ron… I make $23,400 a year.
No pastor, no matter how great of a job they do or how big their church is needs to make over $100,000 a year in salary FROM THE CHURCH* (and that is probably too high).
*Outside investments, side ventures (publishing company for example), are fine as long as they don’t take away from the work they are paid for.
It is not so much the specifics i.e. big house, plane, salary etc. It is that he has axed almost all other staff members citing the bad economy and repeatedly ask for more financial giving. However, Fellowship has up until a year or so always been and had a very creative and talented pool of staff, musicians and lay people and many sub ministries which have all been axed. The music service is now conducted by a few youth musicians and an audience of young people who stand up and bounce around. The main issue is nothing has ever been communicated to the church body – nothing. No one but Ed knows what is really going on. If it weren’t for the thousands and I mean thousands of selfless volunteers Ed Young ministries would not be where it is Today. He is a great preacher and communicator of sermons but for some reason leaves many questions unanswered and avoids any communications to or about the church.
Thanks for posting Ed Young’s response this past weekend. I don’t think he really addresses the substance of this issues raised by the news report, but by the looks of it his congregation is satisfied. What they choose to pay him is their business, after all, so that’s what really matters.
His response is basically:
We don’t OWN the 8.7 million dollar jet, we LEASE it.
My house isn’t 10,000 square feet, it’s 7,800 square feet.
My salary isn’t 1 million dollars a year and I’m getting paid less than some undefined comparison group.
Despite the fact that this statement is slightly more detailed than his blog response, it isn’t going to be enough to answer legitimate questions about whether Fellowship Church is being a good steward of people’s contributions. Even though it was clearly designed to generate ratings–which isn’t wrong in and of itself–I suspect the news report wasn’t fabricated whole cloth. It’s pretty doubtful that a regional news outfit would run a story like that without at least some factchecking. I hope that what he says is completely accurate because if it isn’t, this story will only pick up steam. (I’m not suggesting that it’s not, of course.)
This is why transparency about a pastor’s dealings with his church is so important. If he said, “I make $850,000.00 per year with a $250,000 parsonage allowance, and we pay $80,000 per month to lease the private jet, but we think it’s worth it”, then where’s the story? We can debate all day whether that level of compensation is excessive, but I don’t think anyone thinks Fellowship Church doesn’t have the right to pay Ed Young whatever it wishes, and Ed Young would hardly be the only person in America getting legally paid too much. Armed with accurate and complete information, members and contributors to the church could prayfully consider whether Fellowship Church should continue to receive their tithes and offerings. The final outcome: eyebrows are raised, maybe, but people move on.
But rebutting the report that the church owns a luxury jet by explaining that it’s “leased,” not “owned” is Clinton-esque. Does it really matter whether the plane is leased or owned? The question is, is the expense of an elite personal jet a legitimate expense for the church or not?
Nor will saying his “salary isn’t close” to 1 million a year but not providing specifics put a stop to questions and speculation. What does “isn’t close” mean? $300,000? $500,000? $800,000? Why not just say what it is and let the chips fall where they may?
The point is, when someone draws a salary, the person or entity paying that salary has a right to know what the pay is. That’s why the President’s salary is publicly available. That’s why the pay of top-level executives of public corporations is publicly available.
The purpose of this lack of secrecy isn’t to embarrass or pry into the personal life of those executives. It’s for accountability. If a shareholder is investing in GE, isn’t he entitled to make sure the CEO and Board aren’t enriching themselves at the expense of the company and shareholders? If a shareholder thinks a CEO is getting paid too much, he can sell his share, and if he thinks the pay is illegal, he can seek legal redress. (The salary of mid-level and lower employees are not publicly available because it’s up to top level executives to manage their pay.)
The same goes for public officials. Can you imagine the outcry if Congress were to vote itself a secret pay raise, but say, “it’s okay because most of us are still making less than we’d make in private industry and secret committee has said they think the pay is reasonable”? That would go over worse than Pelosi’s health care plan.
The other consideration is the preferential tax treatment given to churches. As a taxpayer, it irks me to see “televangelists” enriching themselves through what is essentially a business that pays no or limited taxes. I think it IS my business as a taxpayer how much Paula White, Creflo Dollar and Mike Murdoch makes from their “ministry.” Personally, I think the law should require 501(c)(3) entities to disclose amounts paid to top executives. (Churches that don’t want to disclose this information on 1st Amendment grounds could always choose to “Render unto Caeser” and pay their taxes like any other entity.)
Considering all that and reading the responses on here, I have yet to hear a single justification for top pastoral pay being a secret that is a benefit to the church or its members. Several people have said it’s simply no one’s business, or that it’s unfair unless all of the congregants also publish their income. But claiming it isn’t the business of the very people who pay the bills smacks of arrogance, frankly. And unless the pastor himself is somehow paying the salary of the people in his church, I’m not sure why he’d have a legitimate reason to inquire about his member’s financial circumstances. (As someone else pointed out, if I was a pastor I would actively avoid knowing this information for fear that I would begin acting with partiality.)
That said, I don’t think this is a moral issue for a church, so much as it is a best practice one. The bible never says church members are to know about the pastor’s pay package. But with all that’s on the line for God’s churches, I’d advocate being open and honest and move on with the mission of the church. By laying all the cards on the table, pastors and churches will almost certainly act prudently, and speculation about the church’s finances won’t be a stumbling block to the gospel.
Art, I think you are wrong on this issue. There are places in this country that $100,000 wouldn’t allow a pastor to live anywhere near his church. $100k isn’t that much money in some places.
It is ridiculous to suggest that Ed Young shouldn’t make $100k. A million seems like a lot, but 100k would be crazy for a pastor that has 17,000 people in his church. Whether we like to admit it, some pastors should be paid way more than others. I am pretty sure that there is a line that is “extravagant or lavish”, but 100k is not it.
By the way, I know I don’t deserve to make that much. I also have decided that in my opinion, Fellowship Church is much more transparent on this issue than a man with disguised voice and a sheet on his head. The reporter also seemed to have alot of sketchy facts that weren’t substantiated. I have some questions about the “intellectual property” that I am unsure of, but I won’t bash Ed Young because I haven’t really studied the issue.
(my usual disclaimer on a blog post: the tone of this response is jolly or jovial, not mean spirited)
You feel free to opine about Ed Young’s salary but won’t open yourself up to allow others to opine about yours.
Classic.
Art: your logic of 100,000 always being too much is illogical. What then is the magic number? Does it matter where in the country you live? What if you are a pastor in Africa, seems like 24,000 is a bit extravagant at that point. The point is each church has the right to make the decision of whether to publish their salaries or not, and how much to pay each pastor. Personally, I as a youth pastor don’t want to know what the children’s pastor or college pastor at my church makes. It’s a lot easier to not be jealous that way and keeps the temptation away(I could also go the other way and be too prideful that I was suffering more for Jesus than they were because of my low salary)…Point is, let’s not cast stones and be legalistic, but love and pray that Christ is glorified in your church, my church and even through this ordeal at Fellowship.
God bless
If I ever become the pastor of a church, feel free to opine about my salary.
Did you come up with any good reason that Ed Young’s salary should be a big secret from the people who pay his salary (one of which I’m not) or fund his church’s tax exemption (one of which I am)?
Ed does seem to skirt the issue and makes you guess at what the truth really is about the plane and his salary. A 7000ish sq. ft. house is still bigger than my house 4 times over with 5 people in it.
Still, any executive that grew an organization from where it was to where it is would be making double that. Grapevine is a very different community than where I live which means the same house costs a lot more than it does in another city.
It is difficult to understand why jobs would be cut in an economy that makes it almost impossible to find a new one without lowering his own salary to keep them employed. BUT maybe he did save some jobs and didn’t publicize a pay cut.
Bottom line, no one knows what it is like to be a pastor but a pastor. The stresses and time demands are unlike any other job. In the same way, unless you pastor a church the size of Fellowship, you don’t know the half of the story. BTW, my salary…$24,000 and I’m trying to cut it back to help support our church plant in a difficult economy. If I were the pastor of Fellowship, I would expect a larger salary, too.
Funny how those who are not pastors have the strongest opinions about pastors.
About the house — first of all let’s don’t get jealous that my house can fit in his 1/2 bath. Second, we don’t know how the payment for the house is setup. He could’ve paid with stocks, his company, gifts, and his own salary.
Leasing a jet usually charges by the hour — my uncle has been a pilot for 20+ years and flies private jets — and those hours includes the pilots salary + fuel. With the Fellowship Church having a big impact on the international level, it makes sense to lease a jet.
As a pastor, it seems that I come at this from a totally different angle than everyone else on here. The people who attend the church that I pastor aren’t supporting me- they’re giving their money to God. I’m not trying to “raise funds” – I’m trying to teach my people to be the type of obedient & generous givers that God calls us to be. I’ve always believed – even as a layperson – that if we give our money and then dictate how it is to be spent, we didn’t really give it. Once you put it in the offering plate (or bucket), it’s no longer yours. You’re not in control of it. You’re not a “shareholder” – you’re an obedient follower of Christ. And you didn’t “give” the tithe because it wasn’t yours to begin with. You “brought” it (check Malachi 3). Giving to a church and then trying to leverage your gift for some sort of administrative power smacks of old-fashioned religious legalism: “I give $XXX.XX so you’d better listen to me.” Been there, done that, and not impressed. Don’t get me wrong – I believe in accountability. As the pastor I’m accountable to SOMEONE – but not EVERYONE. There’s a BIG difference between the two. My salary is set by a board of spiritually mature parishioners, who know A LOT more about what goes on behind the scenes than anyone sitting in the audience who may wonder how much I earn. But at the end of the day you can’t share everything with everyone who asks – it’s just not possible. The factors that go into setting my salary are so intricate that just telling you what I make without explaining the private fires I’ve put out would be out of context.
And by the way, I earn just below the median average for a church of our size (attendance & budget) according to the latest SBC comparative study. I’m not afraid of anyone finding out what I earn (I usually reveal it when asked). But I still don’t believe it should be public knowledge. I believe it is someone’s business; it’s just not everyone’s business…
You’re right, Ron. The sheep are supposed to write the checks and not question the exalted, infallible leaders. I figured it might be appropriate to express a logical, reasoned opinion about pastoral pay in a blog post soliciting opinions about that topic, but I forgot only pastors are supposed to have an opinion about things. Thanks for reminding me
A lot of great post on here. Timm has great perspective.
I think some of the concerns at Fellowship are coming from the church entering into a serious period of change. Mark Suddberry’s comments from earlier help open my eyes to some observations that I have been making about Fellowship. They were the first “creative church” that I ever followed. Growing up in North Carolina there were no North Points or Fellowships until Elevation came to Charlotte 3 years ago.
It has been fascinating to watch the church grow over the past few years. I think they are starting to head down a road not traveled by many. They are generally a church where change is always the consistent. Ed has always been that way when it comes to staffing. He does this to create change and fight complacency.
Now – When he changes up the staff… It leaves even me saying “Say What?” Decisions to move people like Terry Storch from the tech department to being a Campus Pastor or moving Pace Heartfield from Students to the head over all worship music. (when he doesn’t play an instrument)
However – it is a catalyst to keep the church from getting complacent.
Apparently these changes do cause tension. I think Mark would be considered a normal fellowshipper. However, if you look at how Mark is perceiving the changes at FC – it really makes you think.
Fellowship’s worship team has made a very public move to a more urban feel and is “embracing the next generation” as a core value in worship. However – you see Mark perceiving this as
“The music service is now conducted by a few youth musicians and an audience of young people who stand up and bounce around.” which is 100% accurate.
Who is right or wrong in this? Do you still change when it is starting to affect attendance? (FC’s grapevine campus now only has 3 weekend services) Is it time for the old generation to move on?
timm,
i think you make a great point, and really get at the balance that might be required.
Josh,
Your sarcasm about pastors as being “exalted, infallibe leaders” is very revlealing about you.
Ron,
Really? You don’t even know me, but feel free to judge me. You might consider that 1 Timothy 3:1 says that a man who desires the office of bishop desires a good WORK, not an an exalted position above questioning. Pastors that I respect, including Michael, don’t view themselves as exalted, infallible leaders, which is the very reason for his original post. They view themselves as co-laborers, not a chosen class. I respect the fact that Michael is humble enough to listen to opinions from others, even non-pastors.
Timm,
You make some legit points. I think while congregants need to exercise discernment in matters regarding their church, that discernment could very easily turn into a prideful view of church “ownership.” I agree that when we give, we don’t maintain some kind of control over how the money is spent. However, it is important to me as a husband/father to ensure that my family is a part of a good, bible-believing church led by godly men. How the church spends money is one but not the only or even the main consideration.
One last thought as to the original post: A few people have thrown out numbers of what the maximum pastoral pay should be. I don’t think we can really be dogmatic about a certain number because the bible doesn’t give a certain number. But if I was pressed to set a “maximum” salary for pastors the I think would be reasonable, I would probably say $200,000 plus reasonable housing expense. That’s how much Barack Obama gets paid, and being the leader of the free world is probably at least as difficult as being the pastor of a church of any size.
I think we should have a UFC challenge with Josh and Ron.
As Ed Young always says – People get funny when they talk about money – including him.
I think that growth is hard as you posted last week. It’s one thing to present your budget as a church when you have a few staff and a two page budget. It’s another issue when it’s 53 million dollar budget with multi-sites. Not that is shouldn’t be open – it’s just different.
I thought Timm has had the most insightful comments and the only thing I would add would be that it probably depends on your church whether you throw out the specific numbers – where you live, the size of your church, vision, church government, and people in your church all add into it. I think having salaries as a lump sum is the best way to go because it shows up in the budget but avoids awkwardness with staff and avoids some other issues.
Usually when people say there is no accountability, they are saying they should be accountable to me and my standards. Even if Ed makes $100,000 or whatever – that number means different things to every person. Also you can’t believe everything on the internet or on the news.
From Rick Warren. “Purpose Driven Life” author:
Speaking about his “purpose driven” success, in 2005 Warren told U.S. News and World Report, “It brought in a ton of money. The first thing we decided was that we wouldn’t let it change our lifestyle one bit.” Even after achieving notoriety and great prosperity, Warren and his family continued to live in the same home and drive the same vehicle. He said, “Next, I stopped taking a salary from the church. Then I added up all the church had paid me in the previous 25 years and I gave it back.” Living on only 10% of their income, he and his wife began to give away the rest in a type of “reverse tithing” principle.
I must say, politics and religion provoke the best as well as the very worst in people. The very best because both can lead to people being unbelievably helpful, the bad side as both can result in incredibly inflexible and irrational acts. I’m not having a go at you, your post just made me see this, so thanks for that.
Folks,
I would say that 1 John 3:17 covers 99% of people in America and 100% of the people writing on this blog. We are all very fortunate and overpaid in the ‘ole US of A. The fact is, the average WORLD income is less than $10k per year, and most of us would be considered to have excessive pay. We coul dall cut our salaries by 80% to give to the people less fortunate than ourselves, but we each make the choice of not doing that.
We are ALL sinners and surely we have bigger things to worry about than magnifying someone else’s shortcomings. I am an engineer making $40k/year and volunteer my time with the church. I am aware that i could live in the USA for far less than I do now.
Whether Ed Youngs pay is 1 mil, $100k, or $10k, it is still excessive according to the bible, JUST LIKE EACH OF OURS
Bobby,
You’re exactly right. Most Americans are extremely rich by the world’s standards. However, we live in America…this is where God put me. I need to maintain perspective, but at the same time, we don’t need to feel overly guilty for that.
i agree that pastors understand pastors best. but non pastors fund the mission of the local church, so their opinion is important as well.
We were members for 14 years and now have been gone from Fellowship for four years. I do not think the real issue is money. The real issue is the Scripture and how it is not taught in its completeness. At Fellowship they talk about some of the issues that are in Scripture but they do not TEACH Scripture. There is lack of understanding of the theme of Scripture and that is The Glory of G_d who He is and His plan.
Bobby,
Is there a reason or scripture that makes you think we should not feel overly guilty for that or is it your own pwersonal opinion? This is a concept I have been thinking about for several months now. I know it wouldn’t be easy to go against the flow of America, but it is definatley a choice that could be made. I am considered rich financially by the worlds standards and am wondering if that is what Jesus meant when he said it would be hard for a “rich man” to enter the kingdom of heaven. We’re all rich if we consider the entire globe.
I am not so sure that the culture or geographic location you grow up in makes a difference on what is considered right or wrong.
My point is that we ALL have choices regarding finances; Ed does, I do, and you do. We will be held accountable for the choices we make.
I read some of the responses here, not all of them, but if I heard Ed correctly when he talked to his congregation about this issue, he stated that the church does not OWN a private jet but they utilize a leased private jet for certain travel engagements. As for his salary, I think that depends on the economy of where he lives and the economy at his church. If his board approves his salary, it must be at least semi-legitimate. Ed is at a totally different level of church leadership/responsibility than 90+% of pastors/leaders. You can’t compare him to the majority of pastors/churches. He runs a multi-million dollar church….that’s totally different than the typical church. I do think his congregation should have access to his pay, and if I am not mistaken, as a 501(c)3 church, if asked the church MUST provide that documentation. If people ask, they’ll know. If they don’t ask, it’s their fault for not knowing, not the church’s.
If we could put a price tag on a turned heart… then the Ed Young Jrs and the Joel Osteen’s are getting RIPPED! A Zillion a year would not be enough. God Bless a man of God that can lead the masses to Christ-likeness and Salvation.. Give the man a raise! Please… every Pastor who blogged here against this man.. THIS is why you are only entrusted with what you have.. you capacity for more is insufficient.